Episode 6 - Friends, how many do you need?

This week, the 9 til Always crew is talking about friendships! What is it, how many friends do you need, and are all friends the same? When do old friends become new friends and how do you know if a friendship is going to 'make it'?

Join us for this chat about our own experiences, reflections on how we differ in our ways relating to or making new friends, and listen to us share some of our own mistakes in the friendship space.

To learn more about the Dunbar research, try a link below:

- listen:
Dr Emily - Friendship 4 Eva - The Imperfects - Omny.fm

- read:
Robin Dunbar Explains Humans' Circles of Friendship - The Atlantic

- watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lPH-qqKHfI

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Email us at ninetilalways@gmail.com or find us on Instagram @ninetilalways!

Transcript

Episode 6 

 [00:00:00] Welcome back to Nine to Always. Hi. Hi. This, uh, today's topic I am very excited about, but I'm also kind of approaching it with some Version of trepidation, I'm suddenly feeling very nervous, maybe because we've done more talking about the podcast topic before we record than we normally do. So now I'm all very self conscious about it, but I'm very excited about this topic.

I think it's one of those that has loads of different facets and it's something that we all experience, or at least most of us experience throughout life, which is friendship. And what I want to start off by saying is that one of the two best things about doing this podcast is that we're doing it together and we're friends.

And another one, which is unexpected for me, is that now that it's out there and people are listening, [00:01:00] I am in an odd roundabout way, and I'm sure you guys are doing this too, like connecting with... I have people from my past who are now listening to this podcast, which it's so exciting and fun.

And some of them are, you know, reaching out to us individually and telling us what they think about it and the fact that they're listening. And it's very humbling, but very, very fun. So thank you very much to those of you who have actually done that. We definitely appreciate you. We appreciate the small, but increasing number of followers that we are having on this pod, which is great fun.

So I have, I felt like that was a good little starter for friendship because it's, you know, a lot of these, most of the people who listen are our friends. Yeah. So far, I'm pretty sure there's no one who's not our friend. I think we've. I found a random person in Japan, which was great. Unless one of [00:02:00] our friends happens to have moved to Japan.

But anyway, so that was a nice little starting thing. Bye! Um, being a words person, I always think it's important to start off with some version of terminology of what is friendship and what does it mean and all of those things. So I think I'm just going to hand over the floor to you, Britta, to educate us on friendship through your extensive research.

Um, well, I, I also just wanted to add first that I think this is a really exciting topic because, we have lots of relationships in our life and it's very easy, like, everyone knows what a romantic relationship is and we know what a, sort of, working, that working relationship and they're both quite contractual relationships, really, when it comes down to it.

But with a friendship, there is no contract and it's really, like, that's quite an interesting thing and you're kind of choosing to be a...

I don't know, like it's very equal, I think. [00:03:00] Equal, it's under equal sort of circumstances. Yeah. That you become friends. Whereas I think with like work and maybe even with partners, it's not always as equal. That's a really interesting point, yeah. Yeah. Why I wanted to talk about friendships is because I listened to this other quite good podcast, they got me really excited about it.

 but I, I think with this podcast, they were, talking about an article. and, in the article, they were talking to a psychologist called Robin Dunbar, who has done a lot of research on friendships and that kind of thing. And I think a lot of people have heard of the Dunbar number. Or there's been, you know, it's sort of come up in other things.

Except for me. I, I haven't. Well, you are about to hear it. I'm about to be educated. Yeah. so what the Dunbar number is, it's basically like the number of meaningful and stable relationships you have in your life. And when they, when they call it Dunbar number, but really it's sort [00:04:00] of, it's almost like a circle.

 where you look at, like, the different types of friendships you have in your life. And they start off with, your intimate friendships, which they say is about 1, on average is about 1. 5 people in your life are like the most important people in your life. Um, and then they move to five, which are like your, friends who, if something terrible happens, they will come in and pick up the pieces and help you with your life.

They're the ones who you cry on the shoulder to and will drop everything if your life falls apart. And then it moves to the next 15. Which is more of your core sort of social partners, so the people that you hang out and have fun with. And particularly maybe do sort of certain activities with. So you might have that friendship where you to the rugby together.

And that is your friendship is about the rugby. And that's what you do. And then it kind of moves on, so then you go to [00:05:00] your... I think the next layer through is around 50 and they're people who are in your life and you would see at parties and have a good chat with, and you know a bit about them, but they're just also there.

In and out. Yeah, in and out, in and out. and then you move to your 150, which is. The guy who you, go to the coffee shop, like you see at the coffee shop and you say hi. That kind of, that sort of relationship. Then eventually moves out to 5, 000 I think, which is... people you know by name and that's just it.

I'm fascinated by the 5, 000 because I can guarantee you that I do not know 5, 000 names. But I probably know 5, 000 faces. I guess that could be work related, right, too. So names, clients. Is that kind of Yeah, yeah. Sort everybody. Yeah. People who you have some kind of social interaction with or some sort of social contract with.

Yeah. Okay. [00:06:00] Um, and it's what I thought was quite interesting about this circle. 'cause I was like 150, do I know 150 people who I would, 'cause they sort of said the 150 people is the people you would invite to your wedding. And I was like, don't even know if I would do that. Like that kind of thing.

And I think a lot of that is around, I was wondering, like, how did it come, how did I come up with that 150? I did a little bit more research about it, and I think a lot of it is around, culturally. So, this guy is American, so I think he's talking about, and I think you can, I think quite often you'd see Americans would have 150 best mates they would invite to a wedding, or the Americans I've ever met seem to be that kind of, style of person.

 whereas I think other cultures, maybe New Zealanders probably wouldn't have that many. No. In that sort of way. Or us cold Swedish people. Oh, you're all the Swedish people. Exactly. It, it would get smaller as you got older, circle. Yeah. Or not, or, or not. [00:07:00] Definitely. So that, that was the other, thing. It's a lot around the life stage.

So I think, in your twenties, you have a lot more of that. You probably could find 150 people you wouldn't find. Sports teams. Yeah. Sports teams and that kind of stuff. Um, but then, and they said it, this, the Dunbar, Dunbar says that, uh, it'll, when you get to about 30, that's where it stabilizes. so you end up getting probably a smaller amount around that area because everyone's kind of got kids and it's, a lot of it's around time, like you don't have time to have all those relationships.

You become a bit more insular. and then also it's around extroversion when they're talking about friendships there, it's, like the introverts will put more time into those five and then maybe not have such a wider group, whereas extroverts might have less of that smaller group and have more of the wider group because they put, they put more time into lots of people, whereas the introverts put more time into like a few people [00:08:00] and the quality around that.

Yeah, and the other thing I found interesting was they said, or what this, what Dunbar said was by the time, if you live for long enough, you go back to slowly losing all your friends till you're back to that 1. 5 where you started, where like your mum was it. So I was like, oh yeah, okay, we go the full circle.

So I think we kind of peak around 30 and then we slowly drop off. One of my parents, uh, my parents did, Yeah, it's good to have friends that are younger than you because when they get to their age people start dropping away. It's like, I mean, they fortunately haven't lost too many friends yet, but a lot of their friends actually are.

I think young, uh, no, they're the youngest, so yeah, they're the youngest, but they advised it was good to have young friends, younger friends. So are they working towards having younger friends now? I'm not sure. I mean, [00:09:00] yeah, they, they've made a few new friends, and around the area, but. I mean, they're still, they've had a, they've been really fortunate with their friendships.

They've had this really great and quite big group of friends right through since we were kids and right up until now that they, they play tennis every week, they go for walking groups every week, they bike, like they all do all these activities together and it's quite like it's, they're more active and more social I think than any of us.

Yeah. It's amazing. Yeah. It's what you would aspire to be when you're at that age, right? When you have that time. to come back. That's awesome. That's possibly a nice segue into the first thing I thought that we would, that's like the French terminology, which, I mean, totally agree. Very fascinating.

Yeah. And I think, when you're on social media. Which I haven't been on for many years, but now I'm kind of slowly creeping back up, yeah. And they do that [00:10:00] thing where they say like, I was today years old when I found out that so and so. I feel like I was kind of today years old when I found out this terminology around friends.

Because I, I have never thought of friends in that way before. And I've also reflected on why that is, because I think me as a person have always been... Very narrow in my view and my interpretation of what is a friend, and it's, I think part of this is language, like this one word for it, which makes it harder because It doesn't mean anything then if you call everyone a friend, and then you kind of need a distinguishing factor to like highlight when someone is a better friend, but you sound like you're 13 if you call somebody your best friend.

That's true, right? Because that's how kids... Yeah, determine who the best, their better friend is. They actually use the word best friend. Yeah. And it's so natural when you're a kid. Yeah. And I wonder, for me personally, when [00:11:00] I, I was in this very fortunate position that when I was really, really young, like kind of first grade I made to.

Incredibly close friends who I now know would, would fit into that intimate category friend. And I think what that meant was that I became like, they became so pivotal to me and to who I became as a person. And we did everything together in our childhood. Like I don't have very many memories from my childhood that didn't involve.

My two best friends. And so I, what that meant was that as I moved through life there were, there were all of the other categories in the Dunbar numbers. Like, you know, the maybe not so much up to the 15 but like the, the wider circle were all, they were all there but nobody could like penetrate this little group of the three of us and then it became four of us a little bit later on.

And I [00:12:00] think in some ways that that kind of defined my view of friends because when I, yeah, when I moved to university, you know how everyone says, oh, university, you make your best friends and you know, that's when you have all of those relationships solidify and whatnot. And that, that didn't really play out like that for me and I wonder if maybe in part that's because I was so Interconnected with these other three women that I didn't maybe open myself up to that opportunity.

Were there any with you? No, we were not in the same city, any of us. But you know, and this was also before social media, so we couldn't like stay in contact that way. But we would write these ridiculously elaborate long emails to one another. Um, almost every single day, like talking about the minutiae of our lives, the way we would have when we were in the same location.

And then we're all still in Sweden at this point. So we would catch up regularly, but, [00:13:00] and I don't actually think that that really changed for me until I went to the other side of the world. And then I, you know, we weren't in the same time zone anymore. So it was much harder to maintain even the, and it got a little bit, probably a little bit.

Much to keep emailing each other every day. But, and then after that I made, additional friends that I would classify just as close, but I wonder even if that didn't actually impact on me way later in life, because I've had such a narrow view of like, who is a friend and very different, I think, to both of you, which.

Who are much more open minded in terms of like who you consider a friend than I would have been, but I'm trying to become And I realized it's very Uh, rude to call somebody an acquaintance when you actually have a meaningful relationship. [00:14:00] But this is language barriers, you know. Maybe it's because I'm Swedish and I didn't think of that as rude.

But I think that's an interesting concept that I, I guess any conditioning, you know, I was just lucky that that happened, but also probably impacted on how I relate to other human beings. Even till now. And I, in fact, I think I haven't really, I'm still moving out of that mindset of thinking actually you can have friends for different reasons and different friends serve different purposes.

And not only is that nice, but it's almost a necessity for life to have friends that like serve different roles in your life. You know, not everyone needs to be the person that drops everything for you when.

Yeah. Yeah. So, um, that's, that was a revelation to me that, that, that's all nicely defined because I like when things are nicely defined, [00:15:00] so I can like fit into the statistics of that. And so I've definitely thought about that quite a lot in recent years. And also the fact that I, like I said, when I moved overseas is when.

I had to push myself outside of that little group and when I was in Australia I made one really close friend and we were similar type of friendship and then I moved to the UK and made one very close friend and you know these people I still consider really close friends and I haven't seen either of them for quite a few years but you know the solidity of that relationship is still there and then when I moved here it was It's really different and I think it's also because different time of life and how you make friends and you know, the opportunities to meet new people and how open you are to that when you move to a new place [00:16:00] because we've all moved to a new place.

But it's also not unusual for some people to just have some close friends. That's, that's not an uncommon thing like that. What you're saying is. A lot of people would be like that. They just, you know, they get on with someone and those are their friends. They don't need to have a whole raft of different friends.

So it's not unusual for you to be that way. Don't feel like it's unusual. No, and I think I never felt like it was a problem. And I don't, I'm not saying that it is a problem. But I, I have reflected over the difference in how People relate to friends or kind of not categorize friends, but in a way, how you do it in recent years, because I have always been like this really Deep, deep friend.

And I always want to go really deep. And I've had, obviously, discussions with my [00:17:00] deep, deep friends on how I need how I need to like connect on that deeper level. Which is very rewarding. But it's also one of those things where, of course, I wouldn't have like a really wide friendship group because There's only so many people that you want to do that with and that you want to feel responsible for.

Yeah, because you wouldn't want to feel responsible for every person you ever worked with or You know, it does kind of change I think how, what it did for me, it changed who I would classify as friends. And so I kind of used to call people like work friends. Did you introduce them? This is my work friend and this is my actual friend.

No, but I think it's part of it. I think it's part of it. Yeah. I think that's really interesting because I think, um, I was reflecting on it as well, particularly because we've talked a bit about how, [00:18:00] um, I classify friends and you classify friends, and I was thinking about that as well, around, I think sometimes, I think, I like being friends with everyone.

I really want to be friends with everyone. And then I get a little bit shocked when they, don't want me to be their friend, or you know, like, I, and I think they're probably a little bit more like you, where they've got their close friends, they don't need another friend. And I'm like, oh, you don't want to be friends with me.

I'm probably more like you in that way. And it's usually, it's around work, friends and stuff where I'm like, oh, we're together all the time, we're connecting all the time. And I, I feel like we're friends, but then to that person, I'm not, I'm not their friend. Yeah. I'm just sort of the work person. We would have started off as work friends.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah, she's my work friend. Yeah, true . Yeah, of course. Neither of you had this terminology because you were like, they're friends, great . And I was clearly [00:19:00] like, eh, we're friends. , but, but this is also like, tying into what you said earlier mm-hmm. 

There is no social contract for what is different, and that is sometimes what gets us into these. Sometimes awkward situations where you have another person who you feel connected to and you're making a connection and you love hanging out with that person. And then you put your like friendship lens on it and go, we're the greatest of friends.

And the other person's like, eh, we're friends, but it's not necessarily at that next level. Because we don't talk about it. I mean, when have you ever sat down, and you're like, so are we friends? We should carry on doing that. Can we have a play date? So I have done that a few times. Have you? I've said, I just can't work out whether we're friends or we're not friends.

Yeah. And most people have been like, we're not friends. [00:20:00] When has this happened? Like, recent years. I love it. In the last few years. Really? Yeah, mostly because when I was getting some mixed messages, yeah, mixed messages, I was like, just could not work out where this particular... And they literally said no, not really.

Yeah, not quite like that, but yeah, they basically said we're, we're friends. Yeah. They had a, you had a DTR. We're acquaintances. You had a DTR, isn't that what it's called? Define the relationship? Yes. But yeah, I don't think it would have ever got, it would have ever got defined. You would have been like, like a little puppy, and they were like, get off my leg.

Probably. Aww,

that's cute though. I don't know, I think sometimes you just have to, like, if you're putting in the effort, like, am I putting in this effort for no reason? 100%! It's almost sometimes like, a bit, it's the same as if you... We're trying to have [00:21:00] a romantic relationship, someone you really like, and you weren't quite sure if they were just flirting with you for fun, or they actually...

See, I don't ever feel like I've needed to have that conversation, because it's either just we've got on and hung out, or we haven't. I don't know. But I mean, in saying that, like, these people I might run with, but I don't really hang out with on the weekend, or... Do you know what I mean? I mean, I really like these people, but I, we're not hanging out.

And I don't know if that's just cause we haven't kind of done the hanging out part properly. I don't know. Yeah. You haven't necessarily pushed it to, but I haven't pushed it. Yeah. We haven't, neither of us is sort of, we're just happy just kind of when we see each other, we, we get on really well and, but you just, I guess you just, for me it was always kind of natural, like just sort of.

Always happened. You sort of collect and then you know, you might have similar things and [00:22:00] like to have barbecue and a drink and then it's kind of, you know, Hmm. I mean, I do think that I do think it can be it's nice and seamless when you're not looking to Progress to the next level, you know, I think I also have a lot of people who I like that, who I never would have thought of as friends.

It's just people whose company I enjoy, you know, for a chat or a party or whatever it might be. It kind of, does it come down to how much you share? Yeah. So, you know, like sometimes that's what solidifies a friendship, right? How much you openly share with them and vice versa. Or you just share and they do nothing.

Then it's kind of a closed book. Right. Yeah. And that's what helps. And that's happened to me too, like I've definitely, you know, I've, it's like I've tried it on with people, but there's also like, I've listened to quite a few podcasts on this [00:23:00] because I'm very interested in human relationships in general and there's like levels of intimacy that you can share to try it out, to figure out, is this a good fit?

Can we take it to the next level with the way you kind of think about it? So, my husband and I like slow. Well, you start off slow. Uh, and I think a lot of us might start off under the guise of alcohol because it's easier and, you know, you feel a little bit more open and like you can be a little bit more vulnerable.

But I also think similarly to that topic of like, how do you get things to the next level? That I have done this thing. And I actually kind of think that everyone does it, but when I, when I moved here, it was really hard to make friends and I was really lonely and. I couldn't, I was think, I think I was on the hunt for like my next intimate friend.[00:24:00] 

I wouldn't have classified it like that. That wasn't the language even in my own head, but you know, that was like the connection and the sense of belonging. You needed connection, right? Yeah. That was what I needed. And it took, you know, a minute to find a person. And then I did. I find a woman at work and we were very close for a couple of years.

And so that was good, you know, that like, I was, I was sweet. I had my friend, I was all good. And then everyone else was kind of on the periphery and didn't have much need for other people, but then, you know, every relationship changes. And I think what I've come to realize about myself is that. Much like when I've met a partner, although a while ago now, but when you're getting to know each other and you're doing that thing where you're like sharing information.

Yeah. And then, and then sometimes it can be a little bit down the line. Like it can be a few months, it can [00:25:00] be a few years, and then you kind of go, eh, maybe that wasn't such a good fit. And I think that's happened a few times. Because, uh, if I'm going to be really vulnerable, the way I've always thought of my, like, what I bring to a friendship, probably tied to, like, my earlier best friends.

Is like what I, what I can do for them, like how, how I can make them feel and make them feel better or comfortable or safe or whatever. And so I've ended up in numerous friendship relationships where I've been like the shoulder to cry on. And that's great for somebody who puts a lot of worthiness on being available for people.

But it's not always super reciprocal, so what happens is like when the person doesn't need a shoulder to cry on anymore, then you kind of figure out, well where does [00:26:00] this, what do we have now without that trauma or whatever it might have been that happened. Um. And I, maybe I confused things if you, I didn't do the DTR,

I never sat down and said, are we friends? But it became very obvious, uh, numerous times actually, that actually there probably wasn't anything outside of a, like a really small, either event or another person or whatever it might've been. And that's something that I've reflected on in recent years, that I, I tie myself to these people, numerous people, in search for this really deep connection.

And when people are going through a difficult time, they're more vulnerable. You know, that's like a transitional time when you are more likely to... I feel a sense of belonging and whatnot, but it's not always like trends. Yeah. [00:27:00] All the other things that you need from a friendship. Yeah. And I mean, one of the things I listened to in the podcast talked about what makes a good friendship and it's all that it's, that it's safe.

I think was one parameter. Um, that it's loving or something along those lines and that it's reciprocal. And I may have fallen a bit short on the reciprocal side a few times. And don't get me wrong. I'm, there's no like grudge around that. Like this was all a very open choice on my part and I got a lot out of being their shoulder to cry on.

But this was something that my husband reflected on. Numerous times, and he was like, you're doing it again. Really? And I was like, no, no, no, I'm not, we're great friends. And all of a sudden, we're not great friends. And so I think that's, um, that's an interesting reflection I've [00:28:00] made only here, but I definitely think that it's something that has happened.

Throughout my entire life, but it was not so prevalent before because I felt really safe and secure in those earlier relationships. And it's only when you try and open up to new ones that sometimes it doesn't work out that way. Yeah. It's always harder when you're older, right, too. So, yeah, to, to make friends when you're older, especially when you're not playing sports or.

Like I, uh, my husband just come from Australia, you know, like you from Sweden was playing rugby. You know, I played netball. He played rugby when we were in Dubai and it was easy to make new friends as an adult because you were playing sports. I think, I think also though, you were both, you were all in a country where everyone was new.

That is true. Everyone was open to making friends. Absolutely. Perfect point. Um, because everyone was in the same boat, so [00:29:00] we were, everyone, so it was really easy. Yeah. Everyone was away from home. So that was kind of, everyone was just there to make new friends and work and play, drink too much. Um, but yeah, definitely that made, that's a valid point.

So it's even harder when you come to a country like New Zealand, like for you guys coming in where everyone's got their cliques from school. Like. They've got their old friends, so it's much harder to break into those friendships. Like, you'll probably make friends, but it's probably harder to get in on the group, as an outsider, I would imagine.

Yeah, I think you almost have to wait for, or you're waiting for that thing, that time when people are starting to look for something else. Yeah. You're waiting for them to be in a transition phase. People move to different towns and so, like for me, for example, you know, I made lots of new friends easily in Dubai.

I [00:30:00] came back to Hamilton. I've got lots of beautiful old friends that make no work at all. Like we just all click and when we see each other, it's easy and there's just, it's. Just, you don't have to question whether you're friends or not, you just, you kinda know, right? Well, you know, deep, deep know. It's almost like family.

Yeah, exactly. But, then you're in another city, you know you've got them, they're not necessarily, like, none of mine were actually in Hamilton. And so I was in the same boat as you guys were, I needed to make some friends that actually lived in the same city. And that's where work can be great, a place to meet people.

Or sports, but I wasn't actually playing in any team sports. So it kind of came to... But ours was quite...

I think it was natural, but I also, and I mean, work is an obvious thing and we have talked about this in previous podcasts, that if we didn't have work, I'm not sure how we would make [00:31:00] friends. Cause it's, that would be very difficult. You'd find, you would find some other common ground, but it, I also think that it was intentional.

Yeah. I think there is research around that. We did do stuff together to make it more than just. A work thing, right? And I do remember us all having a conversation saying, Should we try this? Pretty much. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah, actually, um, yeah. Yeah. It was very much like, I don't think anyone really anticipated that it would be seamless.

And some of the research does suggest that people who think that it is going to be seamless don't end up making a lot of friends because it actually does require effort and intention in order to kind of build that connection to have the sense of belonging that we all so

Yeah. I think there's something, there's something that says that it takes 200 hours to go from stranger to intimate [00:32:00] friend. Wow. That's a lot of time. That is a lot of time. That's a lot of effort. That's like, that's like most of the year. Oh no, sorry, that's days. 200 days. That's like, that is a lot. Yeah. No, but 200, yeah, it makes sense, right?

 So what do you, if you think about the group of friends that, particularly, I guess you were talking Lucy, about having old friends and new friends, and you said, you know, when you know, you know type thing, which is totally true. And I think particularly for old friends, I mean, it's the same for me.

But you've put more than 200 hours, so I guess that's why they're such good friends. Yeah. And, and, and for those old friends, like it is easy because you don't see each other very much or you know, in, in some of our cases for years. And then you hang out for maybe only a couple of days and it's amazing because the history is there.

Yeah. And I've always felt like the reason that's so easy is because they know me, they know my [00:33:00] story. Yeah. There's no need for like, oh, and here's the back. story of that thing that happened, because they already know that, and because they have this deep,well of knowledge of, of who you are as a person.

They only need to catch up on like, the last two years. Yeah. I think as well, there's. There's lots of research that shows, because you're talking about the friends that in like high school and uni and that kind of thing, there's, that is the time when most people meet or have their closest friendships because you are trying to work out who you are and your values and all that kind of thing.

You're all working that out together and you're, you're making those choices with people who you think are like, yeah, do you have similar values? And those people as well. Those people, during that time, are really pivotal in all of your life decisions. Like, you talk to everyone about, like, when you were young, you'd talk, like, job, [00:34:00] career, like, you'd ask some boyfriends, if they liked your boyfriend, all that kind of thing.

And now, I think when you're older, you don't need to ask people. What, what you want to do with your life, you know, like you don't have, have those same conversations. I think you've done the, you've done the polling already. Yeah. Yeah. You don't need that, that reassurance because you've sort of got that in yourself or with your one partner and all that kind of thing.

So I think that's why you've just really worked through your entire life with these people. But eventually your new friends will be your old friends, which is also a nice thing, right? So you'll have your new friends will become your old friends. And then you might make some more new friends. Yeah, but will they, like, will, like, say with like our friendship or something like that, will they still, will we still have the same impact when we're older?

Compared to our very first friends, I wonder. But maybe this is the whole point of everyone kind of fitting into a different [00:35:00] category. Because I think, if I think about the times when I catch up with my friends from Let's, let's say Europe, cause they're not all in Sweden anymore. Like, of course, you, there is a lot of nostalgia, there's a lot of reminiscing and laughing about stuff that happened.

And then you kind of build up your memory bank of new stuff with one another. And but, but you also like, that's your happy place. Like you're sitting in that, like, this is all the stuff that we did together. And that was amazing. And here's some new details about my life. I mean, not, not that I don't talk to them, but you know what I mean?

Like, so I think in some ways, what I'm trying to say is I think that you can definitely have like new things that become equally important, but for slightly different reasons, because isn't it all about the stuff that you've shared together? That's what makes it so wonderful. What about the time you [00:36:00] and I had that goose?

The golf ball. We've got some good stories. But like stuff like that, like that's what By accident I'll have you know. That's what makes, uh, I think that was the whole point about the three parameters around safe, secure and reciprocal. Because that is what gives you that sense of belonging. Yeah. Which is a human need, right?

Yeah, and it's stronger than like the need for food and shelter. Like there's, which is crazy when you think about it. But not so crazy because, you know, we actually are like pack animals. There's not many people who do well without having some kind of human connection. Interesting segue because I tried to find the imperfect.

I didn't try very hard because I was trying to the traffic lights, but, um, I wanted to listen to the French one that we thought, that I thought they [00:37:00] had done, and I ended up listening to one called Lost Connections from the same people. And the guy that spoke, part of it was, their focus is a lot around mental health, but he, he talked about how Especially because they were going through the lockdown at the time of the podcast, how important it is for human connection, actually physically face to face, eye to eye kind of thing, how important those connections are as opposed to like just on a phone call or on a screen or whatever.

Yeah. Um, it's a massive human need that we need for our mental health. Yeah. Whether it's one person or five people or 20 people, you need to have that. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that there's research around people living longer, healthier lives if they have strong friendships in their lives, but those friendship have to be of that category.

Yeah. Um, like they have to [00:38:00] be meaningful. Yeah, definitely meaningful and they have to make you feel safe and secure and seen and heard. All the want to be seen and heard and understood, right? That's the whole purpose of like feeling a sense of belonging. And I think maybe that's where I was falling a little bit short in my previous attempts, uh, working my way through people.

And that's, there's not, there's not, that's not for any reason, you know, it's not like, Oh, you know, this person, what, what I don't like about some of the friendship pods I've listened to. Is that there's a lot of like, naming, shaming, blaming, and people do this thing where they're like, It was all this person's fault and I'm really amazing.

I don't, that's not really what I'm talking about. I actually think it's a little bit like, When you leave a work environment or you leave a marriage that's not working anymore. Like, if it's not working, it's not working. And if you have to, Although I do think that some people have a different view on this, but if you have to push it too hard, maybe it's not worth it.

Like both of you or all of you, if it's more than two [00:39:00] people have to want to be in it and you have to want to like be vulnerable and close and compassionate and kind. And if that's not happening for one reason or another, even if it means that you have your own internal boundaries, then I'm not sure that you should be.

pushing through with it, but I probably would have the same feelings even if it was any other kind of relationship. I mean, if you're in a work situation that isn't really working for you, like how long should you be pushing for that to work in your favor? If it doesn't make you feel safe and seen and heard type thing.

Yeah. 

Although I definitely, like there is definitely, I feel like I've got some good friendships where I just think they're fun to hang out with. And I don't necessarily feel like I have to go on a date with those people. Yeah, I see.

And I also think. For [00:40:00] me, I think a lot of, like say with like someone who you, um, always go running with or something like that, always go hunting with or something, you might have that relationship where you both really love that activity. I think if you do it for long enough, you learn a lot about those people just through their actions and the way, just, yeah, yeah, I don't think you always have to go.

I think a lot of it is around time and actions and your like shared enjoyment. I don't think, uh, I should probably explain myself. I don't think that you need to be deep and vulnerable with every friend either. I guess the difference for me is that I wouldn't have considered those other people that I have fun with, you know, at a party, I wouldn't necessarily have classified them as a friend before I realized that.

The way that that term is used is much wider than that. And it is, you know, like, I consider myself a people person. I love meeting new people. [00:41:00] And I love talking to new people. And I love going to events and functions and parties and... And just like chewing the fat with people who I might never see again.

Like that doesn't mean that it's not a meaningful connection. I'm not going to tell them my life story. Because I need to have deep and meaningful connections with everyone I meet. But I definitely have a strong need to have a small number of those. And I'm very lucky that I do. Like I do have those strong connections that do make me feel safe.

And that I don't have to... I don't like, I don't have to pretend, I don't have to watch my words or anything like that. Like it's just, this is who I am and if that works and you're finding the right fit, that's great. And that's what I think I, for a period was searching for it. I mean, now I've had it luckily and I've had it for, for quite a few years.

But if I didn't have that, I definitely felt like something was missing or something. Probably was for me because I'm [00:42:00] so deeply like conditioned to needing that kind of connection and whilst I had the other stuff, like I had people I would talk to and laugh with and joke around with, that wouldn't have been enough for me, personally, because I didn't have that.

So, yeah. I need to be deep. This would be construed the wrong way.

But I also don't think that... I'm doing so much talking about it. I think about this topic a lot. I just think that there's a, um, like there's a life cycle of romantic relationships or work relationships. There's a life cycle of friends. Some, some friends. Some friendships. Some friendships. Yeah. And I think there are some people who, I, who have been in my life and who have been like super important for a period of time.

And I can rattle them out probably on both of my hands [00:43:00] and couldn't really imagine my life without those people at that particular point in time. And then it may have played its course. And I don't think that there's anything. wrong or strange about that. I just think that that's kind of what happens, but I've also moved around a lot.

So I've had to make new friends. So I'm not really threatened by the idea that people come in and out of your life as, as that happens. Like I don't think that if you move into a new relationship that you have to stay in, in any relationship and that does extend to friends. And I don't know that culture looks at it that way.

I think this whole lack of, like, defining what a friendship is, because everyone has a different view on it, and everyone might want something different from that friendship, and you interact in different ways, then society just doesn't like it if [00:44:00] people don't stay friends. And I think we always make something more out of it.

 I, I'm trying to think back to my friendships. There's not a lot that have faded away and, unless they were just not really good friends to begin with. Like the good friends. have stayed mostly good friends, I think. I mean, I might not talk to them as much, but I don't ever think our friendship's over, I guess.

Don't, yeah. I think it's probably how I am, like, I'm, like, there's certain, you know, I've moved away for 15 years, so there's friends from uni that I probably didn't keep as, in contact as much as some of my other friends, but I still think of them as friends. I just haven't spoken to them for a while, but I think if I see them or we catch up with friends again, I think that's called a dormant friendship when you haven't seen them.

 yeah, there might be some of those people you haven't seen for 15 years and then you bump into them and you're like, Oh, cool. Yeah. That's like a dormant friendship. [00:45:00] And I actually think that maybe that's true for every friendship. If you go dormant, some don't, I guess. Yeah. I mean, if you, if there's...

You both have to make the effort, right? To keep in touch. And if there is a desire to do it, then yeah, any friendship is dormant. I don't think the door is ever shut necessarily. 

 because there's always opportunities to like understand each other better. Yeah. Because I think like any human connection, a lot of these things happen because... They're really awkward conversations to have and most of the poems that I listen to, a lot of them talk about like friendship breakups because it's the one thing that we don't really know how to handle.

And a lot of them talk about like how you, it kind of fizzles out because it's much easier than like confronting another person and talking about it. Kind of like children, right? Yeah. They, they tend to break up with their friends and then they're friends again. And they break up and they're friends again.

Yeah. And it's, uh, [00:46:00] dealing with it at the moment. Yeah. But that's an important point of life, isn't it? Mm-hmm. Like you have to learn how to be in community with other people. Yeah. And like understand what's important to other people. I had an interesting conversation with my son. So he, he has this long term, an old friend and he decided he didn't wanna.

See that friend much anymore, and I just could not understand it. I was like, but You've been friends for ages. Like I just don't get it. Like what's happened and he kept saying nothing, nothing, nothing And in the end he finally actually said This friend had said something that had hurt, really hurt his feelings Something that like really bothers like My son to, you know, and so that was the core of it.

He'd been deeply hurt. And so instead of Dealing with it. He rejected [00:47:00] the friendship and so I was kind of okay. So why don't you tell this friend? How you feel and if he reacts in a stupid way, then maybe they're not the right friend for you But then if he's sorry and says I didn't you know, I didn't mean it or whatever Then get over it and move on like be friends again because you've been friends since you were at kindy so it's kind of a an interesting sort of teaching moment, I guess of course, I mean, yeah, that's how we deal with most human relationships Yes, but it's also probably a relatively common knee jerk reaction.

Not just Yeah, exactly. We, we get hurt and then we, yeah, and then we don't necessarily know how to deal with it and don't want to have that like awkward conversation about it. And that sort of opens up the point I think sometimes it's really interesting because you, sometimes your friends will tell you something you don't want to hear and you're like, well, you're my [00:48:00] friend, why are you?

Saying this to me, you're here to support me, you should be telling me. Don't shoot the messenger, I don't even know. But there's your friends that normally have to tell you the shit stuff. If something. Yeah, I don't know. Do they always tell you? I always think it's... Are they protecting you? Yeah. Depends what it is, right?

Like, if your husband was cheating on you, and I knew, you'd want me to tell you, right? , I mean, or not? I, I dunno. I think be a really, I think that can be a really confusing point for someone. It's, it's really, 'cause sometimes you're like, am I, am I here to, I guess, am I your friend and by your friend on here supporting your choices and that kind of thing?

Or am I there to tell you that I don't agree with your choices? Yeah, I dunno. Yeah. I guess that your friendship's different. You kinda. Yeah. You have to navigate that. Figure it out. Navigate it. Yeah. I mean, I, I [00:49:00] certainly don't say things straight away for fear of hurting that person's feelings or upsetting them or, and then sometimes it catches you back.

Yeah. Yeah. And, and this is not just limited to friendships. I mean, we find ourselves in, but it's more prevalent for friendships and particularly close ones. Yeah. Because they're the people who mean the most to us. And then it hurts the most. Yeah, and then it hurts the most because you have to make these really difficult, hopefully not, the cheating sins.

What are you trying to tell me? Sorry, Britta. Just joking. No, no, you're husband won't allow it. No, I, I don't know if that's what you were meaning, but I, I mean that's... That's probably the most likely scenario that you will, um, that you'll find yourself in a situation with another person who means the most to you.

[00:50:00] And then you have to figure out what's, what are our boundaries? What's the rules of this friendship that we've never discussed? Yeah, this is the contract, the non contract. The non spoken contract on your relationship. And those are really, really tricky things to navigate. And I think it's really a very common response to avoid.

I'm, I'm classic. I'm, I'm a real, like, even with any kind of conflict, I'll avoid it for as long as possible before I deal with it. I'm just not good with conflict. I think it's also around, I mean, We all have vulnerabilities and we all know our friend's vulnerabilities and you don't need to, um, I think as a friend, you kind of, you don't want to keep bringing up their vulnerabilities or [00:51:00] pointing them out.

You want to protect them. So I think part of being a good friend is also, um, not always bringing up those things. Yeah, I guess There's so many,

I guess there's so many scenarios, right, where this could go. Like, is it stuff that you find out that you should tell them, you shouldn't tell them, or there's, they've got flaws, do you tell them about them? No. Probably not, right, because you just love them for who they are. No. Yeah, I know. It's tricky. Um, yeah.

And we all have flaws, so we probably don't want to go to that extent. Oh, goodness. Yeah, but I also think that we can have friends that are really meaningful and who we love to hang out with. And then we, with some people, you never get to that awkward thing. Like you never find something out whereby The, the core of that relationship is tested.

So you're just swimming along nicely and sailing into the sunset because it never comes up. Yeah. You [00:52:00] know, and I think probably that happens to most of our relationships. It's only a small number of them where sometimes, you know, the proverbial shit hits the fan and then you're like, what do we do now?

And that I think is what defines your relationship. Yep. And. That's when you're making all of these really difficult decisions. And sometimes you make a decision that's, I don't want to say right or wrong, but you make decisions that you, I mean, in the long run, you just have to be comfortable with it. And if you're not, that's when you have to take action around it.

And I, I think if you're lucky or unlucky enough to find yourself in one of those where you have to kind of confront. something and deal with something. That's when you figure out, it sounds, it sounds so dramatic, but like who your true friends are, because you kind of do, like if you can work your way through an awkward [00:53:00] situation, it makes you stronger.

And if you can't, then that's when you like re evaluate. I mean, that, that is what's happened to me. If it's not just like a fizzle or dormant friendship, that's when it's sort of when things come to a head and you do a lot of ruminating about situations. I think too, like, friendships can come to a head when trust has been, I guess, severely broken or, or, you know, like, I think I was talking about it with you guys.

Because, you know, I had a friend who, stuff had happened with me that was deeply personal and she shared it with a friend of hers that she'd fallen out with and she was using that as a way to connect with that friend again. And that, that kind of stuff, to me, that's, that's pretty shitty. Yeah. And what did you do?

So I forgave her, but then she did it again on [00:54:00] something else. But the second time, I was kind of like, not happy. Was there a, was there a discussion between you and her about it? Or like? I, yeah, I would, I, I said,

what the fuck?

Yeah. And I mean, we made up like, I'm quite a forgiving person. Like I'm very forgiving. I think we even made up after the second time, but there was definitely a level of change in the way I felt about the trust levels of friendship and things I would tell her. So that changed as opposed to not, I didn't completely cut the friendship off.

Um, yeah, but, but eventually actually that friendship has kind of. fizzled or gone dormant. But I did move countries too. So, um, but part of probably going dormant was my, my kind of, that having had that happen. The distra like A choice, [00:55:00] you mean? Or I didn't keep in touch as much as I might have had that, not had that happened.

Yeah. Because you kind of feel You've not only did you feel, do you feel like they've told stuff that you said in confidence to someone else, um, but they've used it so that it's not just telling, it's like using it in a way that, um, for their own gain, like it's kind of, that's kind of low. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And I mean, irrespective of what happened, it made. , you not trust this person. Yeah. And so there was a kink in the eye. Yeah. Yeah. And we were really close. Like, and that's why I think the first time I was very forgiving. 'cause I did value our friendship. Yeah. That's interesting. Hey. 'cause I, I was just thinking about some time, like a few times when I was younger, when I did some things, which probably weren't the gracious and my [00:56:00] friends still stuck by me through that time.

And I'm like, that's. Amazing that they Yeah, yeah. Like that friendship. Yeah. Must have been strong. Yeah. They're still my friend, . Yeah, totally. I've put terrible choices, , haven't we all? Let's do it. But let's, let's not go into that. I could go down a, about a rabbit, Warren , how I, I did have a conversation with another one of my close friends about that, about like, when.

When you find yourself in situations where, um, somebody who is a close friend is, is doing something or saying something or, you know, that contradicts your values or your belief system or whatever it might be, and her response was probably similar to whatever your friends were thinking at the time of your Decision making that, uh, you know, you're already invested in the relationship.

And I do think that that [00:57:00] has a lot to do with it. And that is perhaps where old and new friends really come into it because it's that whole, I've known this person for X amount of years. And I don't think years is the only way to define this. I think there's also like, there are people who I was, I wasn't necessarily in the same geographical location for years.

But it was very, like, an intense relationship that can have the same meaning. And I think when you're heavily invested in something, then naturally you're gonna, like, I guess if you've been married a long time and something happens, then you know, you're probably more willing to work at it. Yeah. Yeah.

You're willing to forgive people for that for a while. Or you know all their good things as well, maybe. Yeah, or maybe, yeah, you're, you're willing to open up your heart to the, because it's all about showing each other like kindness and compassion. Like if you can do that and you can maintain any relationship and then, you know, [00:58:00] anything becomes dormant as opposed to the end.

Um, and maybe that's just the way to think about things as opposed to. Being very black and white about it. That, you know. I think we're all very fortunate and lucky to have so many new and old friends. some people might only have one friend their whole life. Yeah, I'm very conscious of this.

There are, there are very many lonely people out there who don't necessarily have the... Deep. The deep. The deep. The intimate friends. Or, or maybe they do but they're not like in the same place. They don't have the face to face that you were talking about. Yeah. And, so I don't want to be flippant about that either.

We all feel very fortunate that we actually are [00:59:00] able. Um, and lucky enough to be in those relationships with those people. well, normally we do, uh, challenges, but I don't feel like there's a, a natural challenge. I have one. I've kind of got one too. Yeah. You go. You go. Mine might be the same as yours.

I just came to my mind then. I was like, okay, what could be a challenge? Maybe there's a friendship. That. Um, you let go dormant or let go for whatever reason, but you wished you hadn't maybe. And I'm not, and there's no one coming straight to my mind now, but I'm just thinking that could be a good challenge if there was somebody to kind of reach out and reconnect and see how it goes 

Yeah. Is that a challenge? Yeah. No, that's a good challenge. That's a good challenge. Um, Well, my challenge has started today, actually, because I'm talking about our friendships and that kind of thing. [01:00:00] Um, I thought I've got to find some new local friends. What you going to replace them? I'm done with you.

I'm done with you. I was thinking a lot about in the town that I live, some of the friends I have there. and the fulfillment I get out of those relationships, 

So today I went. You found some different ones. Yes. Ha ha. I don't know if this is a good challenge. Is this a challenge? Let's, let, what is the challenge? Well my challenge was that I, well today I went to a, like a women's meetup at lunch. Ah. For the Waikato women's group. Because I thought I need to find some more like minded.

Oh that's good. Or just people who I think would be easy or Similar. Similar to become friends with, yeah. So that was my side of my challenge today. That's a great challenge. I think in fairness, seeing as you guys have both been so good at finding challenges, I probably do have challenges. I have two, actually, that I've [01:01:00] also kind of already started, but I just wouldn't have coined it like that.

One is that I do want to widen my... friendship terminology, horizon , and think about friends in a much more friendly way, instead of acquaintances and not use the term acquaintances. Um, so I don't know know exactly how that's gonna play out, but let's just keep it like that, that I wanna like open my, my own mindset to calling.

More people, friends, and the second one is, which has been very Prominent in the last few weeks when a friend of mine has gone through something difficult Is that I want to be much more intentional around how important my friends are to me because I'm not always [01:02:00] I haven't always been a very emotional person, although I'm getting more and more so in my older years.

But I want to be more open about how much people mean to me when they actually do mean a lot to me because I'm not always so good at saying that. So... Are you going to ask some people if they'll be your friends? You mean like actually telling people? I mean actually telling people.

Telling your friends you love them. Yeah, exactly. That would be really cool. I think that's good because then there's, and I think, I'm just doing another challenge for myself. See? I think there's people who, um, I know, and I just think that I just really want to be their friend. Of course you do. Get off my leg, Freda.

Oh, I just feel like I'd like to go from like, the 15 friend to the 5. I'd like them to be in my inner 5. So maybe I'll, [01:03:00] someday I'll do that. Stop it. If we get a phone call from, This is the police. Are you being arrested for stalking? I don't, I don't know. I don't know how I'm going to go about this. But, yeah.

Oh, that's a great challenge. I like that I have a friend who, she always says, I love you when she hangs up and says goodbye. And it's really, and so I sat back and it's, it's actually, it's really beautiful.She's, she's very good at, You know. Vocalizing. Vocalizing. Yeah, I have two friends who are very good at doing that, and in the beginning, cause let's not forget that I'm Swedish.

We don't bandy about I love you just like that to people, so, although luckily I don't have to say it in Swedish cause that would be far too intimate, but, um. And in fact it started with one of my very close friends in Australia. He was American and he would always say, I love you, I love you. And I got used to it and I was using it with him, but it was [01:04:00] okay because he was American and that's just what they do.

But now I have a couple of friends who do it here and I love the fact that they do that. And it makes me more open to saying it to other people. Yeah. And so I think it's, it's like, gives me the warm fuzzies. Yeah. Not just when I'm here. We sometimes go. At the night, drunken, I love you guys.

I love you can actually also just say it at the school. I know, I know, I know. Or like, when you're like, fully in your senses. Yeah. And not like, under the influence. I do find like, Talking about, you know, giving your friendships more time and love and stuff. There's, it's hard to then make more new friends because we have limited time.

So I'm kind of, I'm probably going to nurture more of the friendships I've got than try and make new friends. [01:05:00] I mean, I think I'm good at that anyway. I'm a ringer. Like I don't check, I ring my friends and I try and see them whenever I can. Yeah, time is just the biggest.

Yeah, I mean, to any friendship. I just had a weekend away with one of my, she was my best friend growing up at school and we grew up, our family, our parents were good friends and they were good friends back then and we've literally known each other since we were babies. And so we had a weekend away and we haven't had a weekend away together for, God knows, I don't know.

I mean, I know there might've been girls, uh, there's been girls weekends in between, but. Yeah. She lives in Raglan and I live in Hamilton. So yeah. See each other all the time. It was awesome. And our sons got on awesome and it was just such a nice catch up and it was awesome. Yeah. Yeah. It's making more time for stuff like that.

I know. I think about that a lot now, the older I get that [01:06:00] those are the only moments. Yeah, on your deathbed, you're not going to go, God, I wish I worked more. God, I wish I hung out with those friends less. Yeah. Yeah. It's the, it's the relationships that are going to mean the most. Yeah. Isn't it? Yeah, definitely.

Yeah. I actually listened to a podcast about a lady who cared for, um, the elderly on their deathbeds. And she looked, she said that, They definitely wish they'd worked less and spent more time with friends or relationships. You know, like it was the relationships and the connections and that's what actually, when it came down to life, that's what it's all about.

Connections. Meaningful connections. I know. It is. And what a nice way to finish. Exactly. It's all about meaningful connections. Some more than others. Some of us are very narrow in our definition of that. But trying [01:07:00] to expand. Anyway, that's it for today. We will, uh, most likely be back in two weeks. But it's school holidays, so who knows.

We're juggling the issues of time and other things. But... Thanks so much for listening. and please contact us or carry on contacting us because nothing fills us with more joy than when people say that

a, they're listening, which in and of itself makes me very excited and humbled and scared, but also that they like it, and we'd love to hear some, some suggested topics. Yeah. Absolutely. So if you have that, and I do always, there's an Instagram and an RSS feed, there's a website, website, yeah, website, Instagram, which is on the Instagram page as well.

 yes, please do get in touch. Bye. 

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